Episode 20: Kate Schaefers: Finding Your Purpose on Campus
Returning to a local university campus could be a great way to pivot to your next act. A collaborative of universities is sharing model programs that bring later in life students back to school, where they can explore new opportunities as part of intergenerational classes and special programs.
Kate Schaefers, Ph.D., is Executive Director of University of Minnesota Advanced Careers Initiative, Life Course Center.
Topics included:
The outdated model of “leisure retirement” and how a return to campus can help
The emergence of this new life stage referred to as Encore Adulthood
What do traditional students and encore adults have in common; and the advantages encore adults have that younger students don’t
The coming demographic shift that has colleges worried
The special intergenerational relationships that college programs can foster
The emergence of intergenerational sharing of talents as well as living spaces Learn to use technology, and the importance to job seekers of being on LinkedIn
Resources:
Stanford Social Innovation Review article by Phyllis Moen and Kate Schaefers
U of Minn Advanced Careers Initiative
Transcript:
Kate Schaefers (00:38):
You know, for the first time in history, there are more people, 60 and older than there are children under the age of 18. And then coupled with that is that we also have people needing to retool and to reinvigorate careers. Universities really should be serving people at all of those life pivot points, not just beginning of career
Betsy Bush (01:01):
Think for a moment about the most age segregated places, you know, are they are nursing homes, retirement communities, assisted living facilities. How about college campuses? My guest today is Kate Schaffers. She's the executive director of the university of Minnesota advanced careers initiative, a program that is bringing Encore adults onto the university campus for an academic year of exploration and intergenerational classes. It's a model that might be one that fits this moment. And I'm so interested to talk to Kate Schaffers about this program. Kate, welcome to the latest version.
Kate Schaefers (01:46):
Thank you, Betsy. I am so thrilled to be here.
Betsy Bush (01:49):
Great. Uh, I perhaps I should call you Dr. Schaefer's because you do have a PhD, which I want to acknowledge because that's huge. Congratulations, but I hope I can just call you Kate.
Kate Schaefers (02:04):
Please call me Kate.
Betsy Bush (02:08):
I love the idea of making college campuses more intergenerational. My listener might know that at the age of 56, I went back for a second undergraduate degree at Columbia here in New York. It was an incredible experience and I wish more people, my age could have that experience of going back to school in this moment in time, not going back to what you were doing 40 years ago, but, but doing something completely different. Can you, um, tell me a little bit about the program you're working with?
Kate Schaefers (02:42):
Yes. And so one of the things that we have seen is that people come to this life stage without a lot of roadmaps. And so they, you know, we, we have old models, outdated models of, you know, you, you get educated and then you work and then you retire and we know that this doesn't reflect the realities of most people as they navigate transitions across their careers, lifelong learning is present across their careers and important, but then also people need some help to look at what they're going to look at in this next life stage, because the old model of a leisure retirement, not only doesn't fit for how people are looking at what they want, but it's also, oftentimes people need to integrate work in some capacity in this life stage. And so we need new models, we need new pathways. And so we designed university of Minnesota advanced career initiative to bring people back to campus to figure out what they want to do next to explore and to be open to possibilities just like they were at 18. And we find that there's a lot of similarities in the kinds of questions that people ask in their fifties and sixties and seventies that are 18 to 22 year olds are asking, like, what do I want to do with my life? And how do I navigate this new world of work? And what skills do I have that the world needs? And what kind of difference do I want to make? They're exactly the same questions that people at 18 come to college trying to find answers to. And so we think that universities are ideal places for people to explore those questions.
Betsy Bush (04:16):
Oh, that's so true. And it's important for universities to bring people back to campuses because they have these wonderful facilities that can serve a much broader section of the community than just the 18 to 22 set.
Kate Schaefers (04:35):
And I think too, and universities need to be thinking that way because when you look at the number of 18 to 22 year olds, we have a shrinking demographic. And when you look at the demographics of 50 plus, we have a huge population it's growing. And so when you think about university serving the people in our states and communities, they have to think beyond that 18 to 22 year old. And I think it's also important for us to keep in mind, you know, for the first time in history, there are more people 60 and older than there are children under the age of 18. So we're talking about a massive demographic shift that we're an aging population. And then coupled with that is that we also have people needing to retool and to reinvigorate careers and look at new models. And so university is really should be serving people at all of those life pivot points, not just beginning of career.
Betsy Bush (05:34):
I think about, you know, I've interviewed so many people on this podcast who had a, a desire to write or pursue music or art, and we're always, you know, either channeled into something, you know, you need to have something to fall back on, or I wanted to make sure I was financially independent. So they went a different, a different way. Now they're coming back to those early passions of, of writing and music and art and, and the other things that maybe they set aside, are you seeing that kind of thing happening?
Kate Schaefers (06:12):
Absolutely. And you know, I think that one of the bonuses of this life stage is that I think people have more, or they at least perceived maybe a little bit more choice when, and, and we see this too with people starting businesses and, and going back to school. But I think people think about needing to work and earn a living. And sometimes they close doors to interests because they don't see them as being feasible. Once you enter a life stage where maybe you don't have to earn the same amount of money, it opens up possibilities to rethink some of those earlier interests. And, and, you know, we see people shifting not only into some of those artistic kinds of interests, which are the kind of the things that you mentioned, but also into social impact work and people wanting to do Encore careers, which are meaningful careers that also have social impact. And so shifting into perhaps a job that doesn't pay as much, but is more, um, heart driven of purpose driven and people wanting to make that contribution in their communities.
Betsy Bush (07:17):
The interaction between undergraduates and older adults, the, what you're calling the Encore adults, that's really an important interaction for both groups. I mean, I think we feel like, you know, the older adult has wisdom to share with the younger crowd, but when I was an adult on the Columbia campus, I learned so much about seeing the world through the eyes of my younger classmates and how they perceive the future. And, and that sort of thing. Is that the, is that what you're seeing happening in this program too?
Kate Schaefers (07:54):
Absolutely. Betsy. And so I think when, and we are still a fairly new program, I will put that out there. When we first designed what we were doing, we really had the person 50 plus in mind and looking at what kinds of experiences make most sense for them and how can we help them transition into a new stage of life? That makes sense, given what they're looking for this life stage, what we were delighted to find though, is that our undergraduate students benefited from these relationships just as our older adults benefited from getting to know the young adults. And as you mentioned, you know, you get to see the world through their eyes. And similarly, our young adults get to see the world through the eyes of older adults. And we think about mentoring as being, you know, an older person mentoring a younger person, but we had, we had that exact experience, Betsy, where the young people were just as important in mentoring our older adults and teaching them things, not only worldviews, but also some, um, some real tools that they found that they were encouraging them to use. And, you know, one of our fellows had a really interesting perspective, you know, because our stereotype is that, you know, an older adult brings all the wisdom and the young adult brings all the technology. And when you put them together, it's magical. Right. And what she said is that it's not just that they know more about technology. And I'll also, um, challenge that assumption because I think we're all learning about technology, but they also know the nuance of when to use what technologies and that's really about people skills. And so, you know, knowing that the most effective way to communicate might be through, you know, uh, um, Slack and that this is, you know, this is a better way to communicate than a phone call or, you know, put what to put in an email or what to, when to pick up the phone and talk. And our younger people sometimes do need a little stretching on when to pick up the phone and talk because they are much more likely to use other forms of communication. But she said that the nuance of knowing when to use what was really a learning experience for her. So I think we have wisdom of every generation, and I think we need to step back and really think about what every generation brings to that interaction. And it is magical when you put together people of different generations.
Betsy Bush (10:10):
You also have a fairly large foreign student population. Is that right? Was that, were they part of the mix as well?
Kate Schaefers (10:18):
Yeah, so many public universities and private universities as well, but I can speak specifically around public universities. You know, we do have a large population of international students who come to our campuses to learn both at the undergrad and the grad level. And we have found that some of these students come from cultures that value age and wisdom. And we have found that some of our students, our international students have sought out our fellows in the classroom to go to them for advice on things like, you know, looking at a resume or practicing interviewing. And it's been really, I mean, it's been amazing some of the relationships that have developed through that, not just with the student and our fellows, but also with their families. And, and I can tell you one example, you know, we had a student from China who is here a long way from home and undergraduate student. And his mother ended up coming to visit, obviously before COVID, this is our conversation. Um, and then wanted to meet our fellow because she had reached out to him and she was almost like his Minnesota mother, you know, she filled in that role. I mean, she invited him over for Thanksgiving and she was, um, who he went to for advice on different things. And so his mother wanted to express her gratitude that he had found a family here that could support him when he was so far from home.
Betsy Bush (11:48):
Oh, that is such a wonderful story. That is such a wonderful story. And as a person who has children who are older than undergraduate, how, how much, I would love to bring an international student to my home for Thanksgiving, but also knowing what it would be like to have a child very far away, and to have know that that student was being looked after. And that there were people who cared about him.
Kate Schaefers (12:16):
And it enriched the life of our fellow and her family, you know, getting to know having this cross-cultural experience and understanding, uh, just what it was like for him to grow up in mainland China and just cultural norms. And I mean, it goes both ways.
Betsy Bush (12:35):
That's a great story. You're working with professor Phyllis Moen, who has written about this particular stage of life, which she, uh, which we're all trying to get a handle on, and we're trying to figure out what do we call it? How do we express what is happening here? She is calling it and you are calling it Encore Adulthood. Can you, um, flesh that out for us a little bit? What's that?
Kate Schaefers (13:02):
Yes. And, and, you know, Betsy language is so difficult, especially when you look at, when you're in a new field and just, what do we call this? And kind of, how do we coalesce around it? But Phyllis Moen has been studying, she's a sociologist and she's been studying life course development. So she's been looking at all of those changes and pivots and what goes on in people's lives at every life stage. And as she has been doing her research, she started to look more at just what is emerging after the career and family building years. So after that midlife time that I think we have a pretty good feel on, I mean, just as we kind of understand some of the dynamics of it, but before frailties of old age. And she believes that we have, we are, what is emerging today is a whole new life stage. That is a direct result of longevity gains. And so we, not only are we healthier in general, I mean, this is not universal. And it, you know, we definitely have disparities, especially around race and class around these issues, but in general, we're living longer. We're entering those years healthier with a lot left to give. And she says that this is really an emerging life stage, a new life stage that we haven't had before. She's calling it Encore Adulthood to try to capture what this means. And she likens it to our process of understanding adolescent at around 1900, there was a professor who started looking at what happens in the teen years, and he recognized that people who are in the teen years are not children, but they're also not adults. And so a whole bunch of research and studies started coalescing around this new life stage of adolescence. As we tried to understand what does it mean for people to go through this stage? And, you know, today we have so much information around the, um, neurological development of people through that life stage. And we recognize they are in fact different from children and adults. When we even look at neurologically and professor Phyllis Moen believes that we've got the same thing happening at, at the other spectrum of age, where we're living longer and the opportunities and the way that people are living are different. And so she's calling it Encore adulthood because she feels that that term engages us in a way that is different from some of the terms we have that lump everyone together. So for instance, you know, when we're in our sixties, oftentimes we get called senior citizens. And what that, I see you making a face Betsy, because you and every other boomer who has entered that life stage is having a similar reaction, but, you know, we are lumping together group of people that can be from 50 to 90 or, and plus, and it, it doesn't necessarily tease out what's going on in your life at that stage. And I think too, we live in an age of society that also by lumping everyone together there, we're assuming a lot of frailty and a lot of limitations. And I think as people are entering these stages, they don't feel frail. And I would also argue people in their eighties and nineties also feel engaged and want to stay. Um, that purpose is still important. So, you know, I, I am not at all saying that we want to discount that piece, but I think that we need to also think about the life stage of someone in their fifties and sixties. And what they're looking for in life may still be very different from someone who are in their eighties and nineties.
Betsy Bush (16:45):
Oh, sure. And I've talked to so many people who say what I say, which is when my mother was my age, you know, I'm nothing like that model that was in my own family. I'm nothing like my mother at 60, who was one of these wash and set ladies who got her hair done once a week, you know, and couldn't do anything athletic because she couldn't, you know, she don't want sweaty hair or something. And so we're looking for that, that new model and really kind of, we're all kind of making that path while walking, you know, by walking it. And so it's kind of helpful to be getting all of these different, um, uh, data points and observations from academia. I think it's, it's, uh, it's very validating to know that there is definitely something going on. It's not just me and kind of looking around and saying, this is, this is definitely different from the people I knew my age, who were, who were my age when I was up or when my, you know, it's just completely different..
Kate Schaefers (17:53):
And I would also are, you know, the, the whole concept of a leisure retirement is socially constructed. I mean, it is a fairly new concept that came out of availability of social security, as well as, you know, through the, the fifties, of people not knowing what to do with their lives. And so, um, you know, a retirement community kind of called leisure world invented the concept of leisure retirement. And I think that what we need to recognize is not only did that model not fit for whole pockets of our population. So when you look at some of our lower income people, they never were able to fully fund the leisure retirement, but I think it also doesn't reflect. And also didn't reflect even in the day, um, what a lot of people want from retirement. Because I think when you look at leisure, leisure is many people yearn for leisure when they're working long hours and have demanding jobs. And they think, wow, I really want to, um, step out of this. It's, it's a rat race and I'm, I can't wait to have total control of my time and energy, but what can also happen is if all you focus in on is leisure, then it's a hard way to bring in what is purposeful in your life and that sense of legacy and giving back. And those, that sense of purpose is really important for us as we look at aging well, and, and, and that meaningful work and that meaningful life as we age. And so, you know, if we are just looking at leisure, a lot of times, that's an empty shell of a life for people. And I think that's definitely true as you talk to boomers and they look at their own identities and they're not necessarily embracing just leisure. They also want to have some ability to use their skills for the greater good, or also just challenge or achievement. You know, when we look at work, I mean, we know that work fulfills, it gives us a paycheck, right? But it's so much more than that. I mean, it's a social network. You know, a lot of our social connections come from the workplace. People miss that when they retire, unless they recreate it somewhere else. But they miss working together on teams. They miss the social interaction. They miss that sense of achievement. You know, we have goals and we accomplish them and that is really rewarding for people. Um, and they oftentimes will also miss just even the rhythm to their days, you know, weekends meant something, weekends are kind of juxtaposed against, you know, the work week, you know, so it's a time to relax a time to enjoy when all we have on our calendar is a time to relax and time to enjoy we often feel rudderless, you know, we feel like we're just moseying around and that can also lead to a lot of, um, you know, just dissatisfaction with life. Sure.
Betsy Bush (20:48):
When we talked before you told me about a man who you became the caretaker to who was in a, I think a retirement community who was really in need of some purposeful engagement. Yeah.
Kate Schaefers (21:06):
So this is an it's my husband's uncle. And he, um, he didn't have children. I mean, in my, my husband really was like a son to him. So he was really a father-in-law to me. And what an amazing, delightful, wise person. I mean, I was so blessed and grateful to have him in our lives. Um, but he retired to a retirement community. It was in Florida, it was a gated community and it was, um, a wonderful, beautiful place. But one of the things that I noticed when we would go down to visit him was just how, um, so much of the, their lives revolved around being entertained. And not that there's anything wrong with that. And I, you know, I wholeheartedly understand that, you know, it is a time for fun, and I think people really need to embrace that. But what I was also seeing are just some cracks in that, in the sense that I think people were underutilized, they had all these talents that were not being put to good use. And I think people miss that sense of purpose and I'll give one example. So we would visit with my children who were in elementary school at the time. And one of his friends was a retired piano teacher. And so when we would go down, she would look forward all year to giving my daughters piano lessons. Now my daughters were not so thrilled about spending their vacation and having to do piano lessons. And even though Ms. Kay was wonderful and they adored her, I mean, I got a lot of eye-rolling of just mom, really? And then I'm like, you know what, for Ms. Kay, this is really important. This is rewarding for her. And his friends would all gather when we were down there because they wanted to hear from someone of another generation. And they loved seeing my children. And when I looked around their community, there were no children. I mean, other than the occasional visitors, there were people my age who were more staff, but there weren't those natural interactions. And one of the things that he did, which I think was very wise on his part. So he was very computer literate and he was, he was actually, when he ended up in the nursing home, he was the first person that had to get, um, wired for wifi in his nursing home room. So he was, he was an early adapter, but he had this guy come every week to help him clean off his desktop and to help him just like, make sure that he wasn't getting any viruses. And this man's whole business was going around kind of coaching older adults on some technology issues. But I would say the more important piece of this was the relationship that developed with that. I mean, a real friendship developed. And so every week he was coming and Harry would also mentor him and this guy, you know, would help Harry with some of his technology stuff. But it just really got me thinking of, I mean, I love that some of these retirement communities are really supportive of people and they provide wonderful care. But I think that we need to also look at how they intersect with intergenerational opportunities, how they are also using the talent of these older adults to contribute to their communities. So they're not all just in this little enclave, that's isolated and age segregated around leisure. I just think it just reinforced for me. I don't want to live in that kind of community. I want to live in a community where there's children, you know, whether they're mine or not. Um, I want to live in a community that, that has intergenerational things. And I think we are seeing some trends around, you know, older adult housing, senior housing that are really trying to bring intergenerational living together. So I think boomers are like me and that they're saying that, that they want more of that. Um, but I do think it also really shaped my interest in working in this space.
Betsy Bush (25:16):
Uh I'm so I'm so sad about the lady who wants to give piano lessons, when you think, you know, if there had been a, I don't know, a program director who could say, Hey, we have a community of children who would love to learn to play the piano. How, how could that person's talents be, be used to help to help children whose maybe, maybe whose parents, you know, don't know where to find a piano teacher or maybe can't afford a piano teacher. Yeah. It just opens up a lot of possibilities. When you think about how you could share those talents with communities that are interested in that person's talent it's. Um, Hmm.
Kate Schaefers (26:02):
And I think this is part of the age-ism in our society that, you know, Harry was 95 when he died. Um, and you know, he, and all of his friends were in their nineties, but I think we look at someone who is older, especially, you know, someone who is, you know, late years, like, you know, nineties and all we see is an old person who needs help. And we don't see the tremendous value that they could be bringing in our communities. And I think that's a shift that we really need to be making as a society because we can't afford to just sideline all of our elders and, and just, you know, warehouse them. I mean, they, they have talents that we need. We have, you know, community challenges that could benefit from someone who has time and talent and is willing to give back.
Betsy Bush (26:56):
Uh, I bet if my listener was interested in this topic, you could contact a lot of community organizations that have ways of connecting seniors with volunteer programs. Uh, one that comes to mind in Westchester County is a program where seniors read to L you know, elementary age children and, you know, read books and help them with the reading skills. And that's just a natural, uh, matchup there. But that's just, that's just one, I can imagine piano teaching, maybe chess instruction or, uh, homework help or something like that.
Kate Schaefers (27:37):
Absolutely. And, and I think too, a really great resource for people to start with would be encore.org and, you know, their name is their website. So it's just encore dot.org and getting on their mailing list because their focus right now is on intergenerational give back and connection. And so they not only have some wonderful stories, but also, you know, they can let you know about some of these amazing connections. Um, I'll mention one that I, that I am so excited about. It's called Nuns and Nones. So it's nuns like the Catholic sisters, and then nones, N O N E like people who have no religious affiliation. And this organization is bringing together social justice advocates across generations. You know, a lot of, you know, this, the, the sisters, the nuns, you know, during the sixties and seventies were real champions for social justice and they are, um, supporting some of the work of some of our young social justice entrepreneurs who are trying to make a difference in communities. And they've even, you know, some of these community relationships are even going so far as, you know, think about nuns, there's fewer and fewer of them, and they have more and more space in their convents and young social entrepreneurs or social activists oftentimes are underpaid and don't have money to pay for rent in their communities. So they're developing housing relationships as well. Um, there's some interesting work coming out around housing of just, you know, people, um, older adults in communities where rents are high opening up their houses to graduate students, to come live in their houses and intergenerational connections that way. So I think that, you know, we're going to see a lot of innovation around some of these things, partly driven by the fact that we have, you know, such expensive housing and, you know, students, um, student debt and just, you know, we, we have some real challenges around finances for young adults, but then we also have older adults wanting to age in place and having big houses that not only do they have extra space, but then they also would appreciate that intergenerational connection and maybe a little help around the house with some of those chores that might be hard for them to do.
Betsy Bush (29:57):
Oh, sure. This has been such a great conversation. This is like totally amazing. I always ask my guests for three pieces of advice that you would have. Um, and let's go, let's maybe go back to the, our original idea of using education as a, as looking using education, uh, as their path forward to determining what they want to do next. Um, what advice do you have to share?
Kate Schaefers (30:28):
You know, one is be okay, getting out of your comfort zone. You know, I think a lot of people are intimidated with the idea of going back to school and just, you know, not only just like, how do you navigate that, but then, you know, do I have what it takes to do well academically? And, and I guess what I would advise people is, you know, what lifelong learning is, is so good for us. I mean, just from a cognitive perspective, as well as, you know, being able to open up ideas and follow your curiosity, get out of your comfort zone, it's okay to be a novice. Um, it's okay to experiment and you don't have to have it figured out, like, don't go in thinking you have to figure it out, you know, just allow yourself that room to experiment. And if you fail, so what at this life, age, life stage, no. What does it matter really? I mean, if you're not good at something, then you just, you know, find something else. So, I mean, just allow yourself to get out of your comfort zone. Don't take yourself too seriously. Don't worry about having to succeed at everything you can fail at things. And that's you learn from that? I guess the second one would be, um, take small steps. You know, you don't have to quit a job and dive in to be a full-time student and retool to do something, start with something small. I mean, you can start with taking maybe an online class, you know, there's really, there's free ones out there called MOOCs M-O-O-C-S that are offered by many of the top universities. Um, there's and, you know, you can earn credit for it and you don't have to, you could just, you know, take it to enrich your life or Coursera, or, you know, there's others out there as well, but just, you could start with something small. That's not a big financial commitment, um, not a big time commitment, but just see if you ex if you like it, if you enjoy it, um, you can also look at some other resources, like, you know, on our campus, we have an OSHA, lifelong learning, a lot of universities do, and that is, it is taught by people in their communities. It's it? It is a, um, it's designed for older adults and it's lifelong learning for older adults and it's taught people in the community. So it's kind of a peer run thing, but, but I mean, wonderful opportunity to expand your horizons and learn about things that you're passionate about or explore new passions. And then I'd also say really, you know, volunteer your time as a way to learn new skills. You know, you might, you don't know where it's going to take you. So if you want to find something, um, no volunteer on a project to try something else out.
Kate Schaefers (33:03):
And then the third thing I would like to say, so, so we've got, you know, get out of your comfort zone, take small steps. And then the third is don't be afraid of technology, you know, embrace it. And I think, again, you know, I, I know that there's a lot of stereotypes out there around older adults. They don't know technology. And I think we have them about ourselves as well. We can get really easily intimidated. And I just want to say, you know what everyone is behind in technology. I don't care at whatever your age is, you know, what we do and what I think, boomers and generation X-ers. And, um, what, what we do well is we figure out the tools we need to do to get our work done. And so, you know, if you need to use Excel, then you learn Excel. I mean, just like everybody else. And so, you know, don't undercut ourselves. Um, but I will say that, you know, for people, um, there's a couple of tools. If you're looking at a career change that you should absolutely get comfortable with, and one of them is LinkedIn and you, you know, definitely want to be having a presence on that site. Not only because it allows you to kind of tell the story of what you're looking for, whether it's a career change or, um, volunteering that that's the place that organizations are going to go to, to find out more about you and not having a profile is going to communicate something about maybe a discomfort with technology, even if you know other tools. So LinkedIn, you really want to have, um, you want to have a presence there, but then the other nice thing about LinkedIn is that it also allows you to expand your networks. And, you know, many of us of our generation had Rolodex. Right, right. I mean, my kids don't know what that means, but you know, what, what we had was business cards and we would keep those business cards. But then what happened when people left those jobs, we lost touch. Oftentimes LinkedIn is your way to reconnect with a lot of people that you've known. I mean, this is the advantage of being 50 plus, right? Because we've had jobs, we've had coworkers, we've lived in different communities, we know people. And so it's a way for you to rekindle some of those connections. And you never know where that's going to take you with regards to opportunities.
Betsy Bush (35:21):
Absolutely. LinkedIn has been key to, uh, what I've been doing on the podcast, um, connecting with, with interview guests and, uh, and also getting listeners. So absolutely LinkedIn is, is really key and it's been fun to reconnect with people I haven't seen in a while. And you kind of send a little, hello, a little wave over the internet, and then that's fun. And then you get to see what they're up to and they see what you're up to. So, absolutely. That's a great, great tip. Kate Schaefers, this has been absolutely a fantastic conversation. And thank you so much for giving my listeners so many great ideas about, uh, finding a path forward and looking at all the different educational opportunities that are out there. And I hope everything goes well on the University of Minnesota campus, where you are. Thank you.
Kate Schaefers (36:21):
Great. And can I add one more thing, one more resource? You know, so the program that we have is very new. I mean, we're, there's only five universities in the United States that have these kinds of programs that are immersive in the way this way. And we're all still trying to figure it out, but we have started a nonprofit organization, a community-based collaborative, um, across these universities that might be of interest if you're looking at your own university, um, as well as just your own community and it's called The Nexel Collaborative. And so the website is Nexel dot org and that's T H E N E X E L.org. So it's a great first step. If you're thinking about these kinds of programs in your community.
Betsy Bush (37:05):
Great. We'll have that up on the show notes, uh, for, uh, folks to follow up on if they want to. And that's great information, Kate, thank you so much for being with me with on The Latest Version.